People are so up in arms at the seeming contradiction of Amish using a light and a battery on their buggies.
Guess what: most Amish businesses have cell phones. If you drive through Amish country in Ohio, you will see dozens of people in Amish garb riding e-bikes.
I hate cars and judges, and frankly Ohio is a hellhole; but if some lights are going to make people safer it really isn’t going to be that big of a burden. If the judge says they have to do it, then their community elders will approve it, nbd.
None of you ever had Mennonite friends and it shows.
The idea behind the typical Amish perspective on technology is to preserve community. Exceptions are sometimes made as necessary or reasonable, washing machines being one of the most popular exceptions. It seems to be working well for them.
Yeah, they can even use computers and Linux distros exist for the Amish.
I honestly really like that approach. I have a feeling they have a much more warm and supportive feeling of family when all goes to plan and there are no predators.
I think victim blaming is the problem here.
By victims I assume you mean unsuspecting drivers coming across a dark, unlighted vehicle in the road at night who could be injured or killed by an accident or swerving to avoid one, right?
If they can’t see a fucking cart with their headlights on, then what chance do they have of avoiding a cyclist or a pedestrian out for a walk?
Some people shouldn’t be allowed to drive.
Cyclists and pedestrians use lights + high-vis gear
They have a very good chance of seeing me while I’m cycling because I’m lighted. If I’m forced to walk on the road at night without a light I’ll stay out of the roadway when cars are coming. Doing otherwise would be stupid, just as stupid as driving an unlighted vehicle with a significant speed differential at night.
No, by victims we mean the people using a road in the way roads were used for centuries, completely legally. The ones being hit from behind by people in too much of a hurry to use proper caution in area where Amish frequently travel and they are not the only users of the roadway.
If I drive through a neighborhood with a “Children at Play” sign and run over a kid, I can 100% guarantee you that I am not the victim. That is some very cringe logic. The road exists first for pedestrians, secondly for non-motorized vehicles, and lastly… for automobiles.
They’re not using it legally, hence the legal proceedings.
Just because something is illegal doesn’t mean it’s immoral. Sometimes the laws themselves are immoral. I believe this may be such a situation.
Traffic laws tend to be about safety rather than morality.
I don’t necessarily disagree. But someome using the road legally needs be able to assume others are too. If you can’t, what do you do? Walking, riding a bike, or driving do you stop at every green light to make sure no one is going to decide the red lights don’t apply to them? Do you idle down the road at 10mph whenever it’s dark or there is reduced visibility to make sure someone didn’t decide the laws don’t apply to them and drove an unlighted vehicle?
The most important thing about using a road safely, whether you’re walking, riding, or driving, is to be predictable. A large unlighted vehicle appearing out of the darkness is not predictable.
If you think the law should be changed and some other accommodation made, that’s a reasonable opinion. But until that happens, the person injured or killed by illegal activity is the victim, not the person acting illegally.
That’s a great response and I’m now on board with you. You’re considering this from a perspective I hadn’t, but I see it now. Thanks for taking the time to write this out.
Let it be known that on this day, the sixth of August in the year of our Lord 2024, an event of great import and considerable rarity occurred: a man’s opinion was changed by Internet discourse.
A large unlighted vehicle appearing out of the darkness is not predictable.
But a bear, deer, moose, or other large animal is, and they don’t have warning lights. Drivers need to drive within the distance of their headlights and sight; it’s that simple.
I occasionally come around bends in the roads to my neighborhood and discover a deer standing in the road. Because I’m not going too fast, I’m able to stop and avoid hitting them. Or, I could come around a bend and discover a large tree has fallen on the road. Again, it’s my responsibility to be driving in a manner that I can stop in time. It’s not the tree’s fault if I hit it, unless it just happens to fall inches in front of me.
Blaming the victims instead of the drivers is the biggest problem with cars in the US today. Drivers need to be responsible for their several tons of heavy machinery, and we do not hold them responsible often enough. So, drivers are practically encouraged to drive like nothing is going to go wrong.
Wouldn’t reflectors work and be low-to-no technology to allow Amish to keep to their tradition? I’m thinking similar material to diamond grade street signs.
No. I live in PA, and we have a similar law. I remember before it was passed, and seeing buggies with just the reflectors.
Close up, directly in front of lights, you can see reflectors fine, but your lights aren’t always pointing at them. Maybe it’s a curve or a hill, maybe they are approaching an intersection, but flashing lights can be seen from all angles.
Also, most Amish have no problem using modern technology when required. It’s not like a pathological fear, it’s a religious devotion to self-reliance. They use cell phones and power tools when they need to, and they hire “English” (non-Amish) to drive them in cars. Some are more insular than others, and they rarely get involved in politics, so they mostly just do whatever is required.
Maybe it’s a curve or a hill, maybe they are approaching an intersection, but flashing lights can be seen from all angles.
Note that this law requires Amish use lights even in daytime, which won’t be visible around a bend or hill at such times. What’s next…telling bikes/peds they also have to go around wearing daytime strobe lights?
I honestly can’t tell if this is sarcasm since motorcycles and cars in the US have required daytime running lights for a couple decades.
Nowhere in the US are cars required to use daytime running lights…certainly not in Ohio.
Daytime running lights are required on large sections of the highway in Alaska. It’s posted on signs on the road and you can get ticketed for it.
“( c ) Every vehicle traveling on a highway or vehicular way or area must illuminate lights when traveling on any roadway that is posted with signs requiring the use of headlights.
(d) For the purposes of ( c ) of this section, lights include low intensity headlights and daytime running lamp devices…”
Daytime running lights are required on large sections of the highway in Alaska
Wow, totally not being misleading here. /s The place we’re talking about is in the lower 48 smart guy.
I was responding to a previous comment that said “Nowhere in the US.” Alaska is still the United States.
Bikes should have daytime strobes and headlamps. Cars should always have their headlights on. Visibility reduces accidents.
You can be on a curved road or a hill and have vehicles you can see that are not within your headlight beams. Further, if a vehicle is obstructed by a curve or hill, you may see lights illuminate the dark ahead of you before the vehicle comes into view.
There’s no reason not to have lights on vehicles on the road.
Bikes should have daytime strobes and headlamps. Cars should always have their headlights on. Visibility reduces accidents.
This is so utterly car brained. Bicycles and Amish buggies aren’t even remotely the ones making the danger here. Are we going to require stupid flashing beacons on pedestrians now to?? No, the solution here is a road diet, traffic calming, speed governors on SUVs, and modal separation.
There’s no reason not to have lights on vehicles on the road.
Because it costs money to run lights, and good lights cost money. (https://www.bumm.de/en/products/akku-scheinwerfer/parent/1922/produkt/1922qmla.html)
They already use those. This goes a lot deeper than “buggies are hard to see” and gets into governmentally preferred classes. Requiring the Amish switch from reflectors to lights is an act of both victim blaming and attempted cultural erasure
Horse-drawn carriages are slow-moving vehicles just like construction or agricultural equipment, or stationary obstacles. They present a danger if visibility is limited by weather or the road’s curvature.
Where I live, every vehicle is required to be illuminated when outside city limits, including carriages, and the horses themselves.
I hate this framing. The danger doesn’t come from the slow moving buggies, it comes from cars moving too fast to stop within the driver’s line of sight. Instead of a buggy, the “obstacle” could also be a pedestrian, a deer or a fallen tree. Should blinking lights be required for those, too?
You can hate it all you want if that makes you feel superior, but it’s still true.
could also be a pedestrian, a deer or a fallen tree
High-vis equipment is required here when a person has to spend an extended period on roads outside inhabited areas (actually high-vis gear is mandatory in all motor vehicles), and are required to walk on the left side to always have oncoming traffic in sight as opposed to behind. Larger roads have mitigation structures (mounds, fences, warnings signs, speed limits, or grade separation) where wildlife is known to cause problems. Our taxes pay for road inspection and maintenance services to clear natural or manmade obstacles.
actually high-vis gear is mandatory in all motor vehicles
Wait, what? All this time I’ve been breaking the law by riding in cars without my high-vis vest?
Is “deliberately misunderstanding a sentence” a new olympic sport or something? Because goddamn, I’m putting bets on you winning at least silver (not gold though, that one goes to the crayon muncher that brought up rape for some weird reason).
I’m sure this will be shocking to you yankees, but not everybody is an American. Over this side of the Atlantic we have actual traffic laws to regulate how multi-ton death machines are operated, and they require certain safety equipment to be present in all vehicles. Things like:
- Spare tire and related tools
- Warning triangle (put it on the road behind the vehicle if it gets immobilized)
- High-visibility vest (mandatory to wear on motorcycles and by pedestrians on paved roads outside administrative city borders)
- First-aid kit
- Corrective eyewear if the mandatory medical exam indicates that it is needed
Since you’re not an American, can you explain why you feel the need to comment on this when you don’t really know what you’re talking about?
The fine is from an Ohio state law that is (imho) unconstitutional in the United States. These people have been using their horse drawn buggies on these roads for centuries. The roads they go on are rural. Not interstate highways or autobahn or whatever.
It’s not economically feasible for every country road in the USA to have wildlife mounds/fences because of how vast our country is. Drivers here are required to stop for obstructions, fallen branches and wildlife and if you can’t you’re going too fast. I just don’t buy excuses about this, the Amish aren’t going down the road at 4 am in a blizzard. They’re way more visible than a deer and they have reflectors. I live around here (not Ohio, but basically Ohio), this law is inexcusable and targeting a religious group. It’s also legal to walk down these roads or ride a horse or drive your tractor at 20 kilometers per hour dragging a combine or something. It’s farmland.
The entire county this takes place in has only 50k people. Rural area.
I found that other commenters post about rape distasteful by the way. There are better ways to point out victim blaming.
If there are people on the roads they aren’t uninhabited.
“She was asking for it going to that neighborhood dressed like that.”
What’s the equivalent of rape culture but for cars mowing people down left and right?
It’s fucking stupid. Anyone who can’t see an object in front of their car needs to have their license revoked.
I’m from an area where this can be a problem. In my experience it’s pretty easy to see the buggys during the day, but at night on an unlit state road even with good head lights they can be hard to see until you are practically right on top of them.
Yeah, fuck cars, but it’s just kinda a crap situation in general.
Especially because the buggies are black, which blend in at night/dusk.
But like deer and dogs are basically camouflaged. So is a fallen tree. A driver needs to be able to avoid road hazards that haven’t been designed for visibility.
If it’s so dark that it’s hard to distinguish non-reflective objects on the road, the driver needs to slow down until their object perception time is well within their stopping time. And that needs to cover the hardest objects to perceive, IMO.
